1904 Ball waltham 16s 17j 14k gold case railroad Pocket watch.
26 August 2018
Description

This is a great condition 1904 Waltham Ball size 16 17jewel official standard Triple signed pocket watch. This is encased in a high quality 14K solid gold case made by Jeanot&Shiebler. The cas is Marked Ball watch Co. , this is a very rare triple signed Ball watch Combo. This is a Lever set stem wind movement. This watch is currently not working

Provenance

This was purchased on a online sale sight.

Acquired from
Auction House
For sale
Yes
Answered within about 3 hours
By David
Aug 26, 18:15 UTC
Fair Market Value
$650 - $750 USD
Insurance Value $0 USD
What does this mean?

Hello Jay - Thank you for sending us your fine pocket watch for appraisal:
TITLE:
Gent's, 16s, 14k yellow gold, pendant wound and lever set, open face pocket watch, Official Railroad Standard- RR, case made by Jeannot & Shiebler Watch Case Company of New York City and the watch made by the Waltham Watch Company of Waltham, Ma. in cooperation with the Ball Watch Company of Cleveland, Ohio, circa 1905.
DESCRIPTION:
Case - 16 size, 14k yellow gold, three leaf, open face pocket watch with suppressed fluted ball pendant and round bow @12, outer cover not shown, the inside of the outer cover marked with the logo for Jeannot & Scheibler Watch Case Company (in business post 1892) - a large 'Y' overlies a small ‘s’, case serial number 156952 and the 14k mark surrounded by the name, Ball Watch Company, Cleveland, Ohio. The cuvette has an inscription dated Feb. 9, 1907...
Dial: White enameled dial with upright bold Arabic hours, bar minutes, sunken sub-seconds bit @6, Continental style spade hands and the upper dial marked, "Trademark, Official Standard, ball Watch Company, Cleveland Ohio"...
Movement: Made by Ball-Waltham, a 16s, concentric circular damascened three quarter plate movement, S/N B208652, Official Standard RR Grade, Model 1899, 17 jewels, pendant wound and lever set, adjusted and of railroad grade...
CONDITION: Case is in very fine condition with two problems. The watch is not functional, a major problem for pricing, and therefore requires a deduction. The other is a small hairline fracture at the 26 minute marker, which is small yet important to collectors and therefore is a deduction to pricing. The fair market price on a similar watch in a gold filled, steel case is $300-$400 (in running condition) One way to look at this watch is to cancel out the lack of function and the hairline dial fracture with the fine 14k gold case, which is what I have done.
HISTORICAL:
Webb C. Ball was born in 1847 and died in 1922. As a young man he worked in several shops, including his own, repairing watches. He came "into his own" during the 1890's when all the railroads were upgrading their timekeeping standards. Ball became active in separate businesses. He established the Ball Railroad Time Service which contracted with the railroads to establish accuracy of train times. At the same time he formed the Ball Watch company and the Railroad Watch Company to supply the watches to be used on these railroad (RR) lines. Ball obtained the watches, built to his own specifications, from several watch companies. In his factory his own repairmen adjusted the movements to meet Ball's high standards for timekeeping. He sold these watches under his own name using his own trademarks "Ball's Official RR Standard (ORSS) or the Brotherhood Official Standard (BOS) on the dials. The early period of Ball watch production took place between 1881 and 1900. During the 1880's he initially used movements made by Elgin, Aurora, New York Watch Company, Seth Thomas and later Howard/Keystone. By the late 1880's the word Standard on the dial indicated that these watches met current RR time standards of accuracy. ====In the early 1890's he used watch movements from the Dueber-Hampden firm as well as purchasing fine Swiss movements from Europe. Between 1894 and 1895 Webb Ball became vice president of the famous Hamilton Watch company of Lancaster, Pa. Therefore, he began to buy most movements used in his Ball Watch Company pocket watches from the Hamilton Company. These are known as Ball-Hamilton Watches. These were large pocket watches, size 18. By this time he dropped the watchmakers name from the movement and only used his own name. Also at this time he ran the Railroad Watch Company which apparently was a line of watches aimed more at the general public than at railroaders. By 1900 Ball contracted with the Waltham Watch company of Waltham, Ma. to produce size 16 movements for his watches and build them to his stringent specifications. By the turn of the 20th century the Ball 17 jewel Official Standard movement was most commonly found being used by RR men. After 1900 Ball started using 19, 21 and 23 jewel movements. During the years 1900-1914 Ball used the Hamilton watch Company to supply size 18 pocket watches. By 1906 he started using a 21 jeweled movement. Around 1904-1905 he placed the number "grade 999" on his movements, specifically meant for the N.Y Central and Hudson River RR lines. The serial number on the movement in 1906 was 533001. Size 18 watches disappeared for the most part by 1912 and were not in the 1919 catalog. Waltham ONLY provided size 16 pocket watches. Elgin made size 18 & 16 open faced and hunting cased pocket watches for Ball starting about 1904-05. All Elgins were marked 329, 330, 333 or 334 on the movement. The Ball catalogs between 1903 and 1907 were almost exclusively open faced pocket watches rather than hunting cases for all of the ORRS grade watches. Those catalogs did not distinguish between size 18 Hamilton or Elgin supplied movements. About 1913 Ball added a shaped safety bow sitting above the stem on all of its watches. Prior to that the stem merely had a round metal link attached for connecting a chain. In the late 1920's Ball turned to the Illinois Watch Company to supply his movements and during the 1950's the company turned again to Switzerland, the Record Watch Company, to supply movements. These latter watches contained more jewels, but Ball always felt that 17 or 19 jewels were best for simplicity and accuracy of RR watches. He viewed using more jewels as a "passing fad", but sold such watches to increase company revenue

Again, thank you for sending us your watch for appraisal.
If you have any further questions feel free to write,
David

Jay kirkhoff Aug 26, 18:36 UTC

Thank you for all the great information, but the triple signed watch combo along with this being a 14k solid gold case makes this a rare Ball watch, the case alone is worth double your estimate, ithink this watch would bring easy 1200.00.

Jay kirkhoff Aug 26, 18:38 UTC

It is amazing that you think the watch is worthless and the case is only worth 300.00

David Aug 26, 18:47 UTC

Jay,
In today's market a non-functional watch is a problem and the hairline is detrimental as well. People want perfection today. As far as the gold case I did not price this watch fro sale in the gold market but in the watch market. In addition, the rarer example of this type of watch has 19 or more jewels rather than 17. HOWEVER, having said that I am will to do the following: If you can demonstrate to me that such a watch is valued in the four figure range as you claim, send me a couple of comparables which demostrate that, and I will be happy to edit my appraisal. I am simply trying to give you my honest opinion, but I have been wrong before and will be wrong again. So, please let me see some facts that are not just an opinion.
My best to you,
David

David Aug 26, 20:05 UTC

Jay:
Here is a good example of a comparable: Cased in a 14k gold case, which has the 19 jewel movement, in running condition, and described as having no hairline fractures, which sold for $965. It will cost you $300-$500 to repair your watch (most likely, unless you can do it yourself). That has to be deducted along with a deduction for the hairline on the dial and the lower jeweled movement. See:
https://picclick.com/Antique-Ball-Waltham-Pocket-Watch-14K-GOLD-CASE-16-332664558446.html
There is another 19 jewel example that sold by a high end jeweler in mint condition with 14k case with a retail asking price of $1775, adn which has not yet sold. See: https://ashton-blakey-antiques.com/products/ball-14k-gold-pocket-watch-vintage-watch-b2540
So, I feel that the appraisal was close to what you should espect if you go to sell it.
David

Jay kirkhoff Aug 26, 20:34 UTC

Thanks, but I have already inquired about the repairs. They will run between 150-250, it only requires a balance wheel staff snd a cleaning, 19 jewel wstches are nit that much better than 17, it is the rarity of f the watch case that was made specifically for the Ball watch. The watch had probably not ever been serviced so ut needs cleaned, there are not sny Ball watches that I could find that have this 14k gold case, thus is a rare combination, you are comparing with more common high end watch, of which this is also. You have to factor the value snd raruty of the case, because it does add into the valye of tge watch, it is the original case. The case without the movement is more than your appraisal, the watch alone is 300.00 in its present condition. I really do not belueve ebay ssles are a true comparison fir value.

David Aug 26, 21:25 UTC

Jay,
In view of the lower cost of repairs I will raise the value by $350 which is the maximum difference in my estimate of $300-$500 for you. This will bring the fair market price range up to $650-$750. I really was trying to find only solid gold cases, which are indeed hard to locate. But I did send you two examples that were in solid 14k gold. I hope this helps just a bit.
Best,
David

Jay kirkhoff Aug 26, 21:34 UTC

That seems better, i am not trying to get you to commit to what my opinion is, but really felt like the appraisal didnt come close to value, with everything taken in consideration about this particular watch and cade combo, I looked on tge internet and posted this wstch on pocket wst h forums, and still have not seen another example like this. I did find this sold Ebay auction of a watch tgat is similar in grade snd case, but not the quality of the J&S case, but the watch does work. Which I do plan on having it repaired be fore selling, which Then I think 1200.00 is fair Look at this on eBay
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F223096794245

David Aug 26, 22:16 UTC

Jay,
i am more than happy to change my appraisal when I can be shown such watches that sell for the kind of price you are contemplating. At any point going forward you can simply write to me to show me one like yours that sold for the amount you discussed, and I will be very pleased to accomodate you by updating my appraisal further. But when I looked at the following:
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F223096794245
All I see is an asking price, not a sold price. All sorts of prices are thrown around on E-Bay and that is why I have to see a sold price with some active bidding to be convinced. I remain very flexible in any of my appraisals today because prices are always changing and adjustments need to be made by appraisers. Your watch case, dial and movement is beautiful, I agree, but I need solid evidence of a real genuine sale of such an item. as I said, even if time has passed if you find a good sold example I will work with you on this. Sometimes the collector knows more than the buyer, but for both appraiser, buyer and seller real proof is should be required before making a final conclusion.
My best wishes,
David

Nick cline Aug 27, 03:02 UTC

I'll chime in as someone who has bought sold and collected pocket watches almost all of which have been housed in solid gold cases. Unless a movement is exceptionally rare, the price is the value of the gold in the case plus a hundred or two and best. This watch is not something a collector is going to go crazy over. At auction in present condition it would have a 400-600 estimate. In running mint condition 600-750 is realistic. If it were in a gold fill case it would be a 200 dollar watch if that. Good luck.

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